Tuesday, 11 August 2009

Evolution of a list

After the recent failings of my counts-as Pedro Kantor I have decided to retire him (for now) and replace him with a converted counts-as Lysander. Both are mainly in for the Stubborn USR which fits the Iron Hands perfectly, and whilst the Sternguard won't be scoring, Lysanders bolter drill will more than make up for that.

10 Sternguard: Power Fist, Combi-Melta x 1=280pts
10 Tactical Marines: Power Fist, Combi-Melta, Meltagun, Multi-Melta=210pts
10 Tactical Marines: Power Fist, Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun, Plasma Cannon=225pts
10 Scouts: Power Fist=165pts
Ironclad: 2xHeavy Flamers=150pts
Vindicator: Siege Shield=125pts
10 Scouts: 9xSniper Rifles=140pts

Alt-Swap Ironclad and Vindicator for 10 Devastators: 2x Lascannon, 2xMissile Launcher=270pts for a total of 1490pts


  1. A few questions/suggestions.

    1) Where's the mobility?
    3-4 rhinos would do wonders for your list's ability to move around. Probably 3, since you can just infiltrate the melee scouts.

    Get the points from dropping stuff like the powerfists off the tac squads, and the plasma pistol.

    2) Why no Telion?
    Honestly, Telion is amazing for scouts. With him and camo cloaks, the only way to sift the scouts is to assault them, and if worst comes to worst in shooting, you go to ground for a 2+ cover save.

    3) Ironclad Gear
    While everyone loves heavy flamers, I think you could probably free up points here by just not taking double heavy flamers. The dread moves 6" a turn, so if something really wants to get into assault with him they'll do it before the torching occurrs.

    4) Combi-meltas
    Can I suggest more than one combi-melta for the sternguard? One's not a guarantee; when you whip 4-5 at something, THEN you know you're gonna get a fireball.

    Overall, you're a little short on range, but to be honest marines just love their 12-24" killzone.

    The only problem I can foresee with going Rhinos is that you leave Lysander a bit stranded, since he won't fit into the Rhinos.

    We want to free up enough points to mount your two tactical squads and melee scouts in Rhinos, and your Sternguard...well, the suggestion that comes to mind is a drop pod. The enemy will want to assault them, and Lysander goes in there as the bolter-drill guy AND the melee ace-in-the-hole.

    So, my suggested tweaks would be:
    Drop 2 Heavy Flamers from Ironclad (frees up 20pts)
    Drop Sternguard Powerfist (frees up 25)
    Drop a Sternguard (25)
    Drop 2 tactical powerfists and a plasma pistol (65)
    Drop the tactical plasma cannon down to a multi-melta (5)

    This frees up a total of 140 points. Three rhinos and the drop pod cost us 140, so we're good on that count.

    The next step for the tweaks would be getting Telion in there, and then more combi-meltas.

    As it stands, your scouts cost 130 for 10 blokes with rifles. Telion in a six-man squad w/ camo-cloaks and a missile launcher cost 163; and if there's no squad to snipe you use Telion to throw a BS6 missile shot downrange. Drop a couple Sternguard to free up the points, then use the remaining 17pts to give your Sternguard 3 more combi-meltas, and then you have...2 points left.

    This is just one suggestion, but I think it'll help your mobility out. Marines thrive in shorter ranges where they can melta/flamer stuff. If you want to get a heavy flamer back on the ironclad, consider dropping the combi-melta off the tac squad, and dropping the plasma gun back to a meltagun in the other squad as well, or that could get you another scout body.

  2. Mobility is an issue in this list, but its just based on what i have available at the moment. I do have 2 whirlwinds that can be used as Rhinos/Razorbacks, as well as two Rhinos and a Drop Pod awaiting stripping/repair. I should have them playable in a week or so, so they will be worked into the list.

    Telion will be going into the list as and when i convert or buy a model, i have only just picked up my old metal scout smipers and my old scout missile launcher and heavy bolter. They havent been played in 5th edition yet so i will play a few games with and without Telion to get the feel of them again.

    The heavy flamers on the Ironclad are there for when his Drop Pod is ready so he can drop where he would be effective.

    As for the Sternguard i am planning more combi-meltas, as and when i can pick them up, or when i get some other meltas to convert some up.

    The power fists will be staying in the army though, they may be expensive points wise, but they have proved invaluable numerous times in my games and i find power weapons on Sergeants hit or miss with MEQs.

    The comments were appreciated though, any constructive criticism is always useful for player development.

  3. Aye. There's always those fun days of "Well, this is what I have..."; we're all there one time or another. (Or several times, depending on how long it takes to build up a new army.)

    I would still suggest dropping one heavy flamer off the Ironclad so you can choose between shooting at a vehicle and shooting at infantry. Get yourself some of that versatility instead of dropping on on the other guy and realizing that, well, you can BBQ his troops OR sit there a turn and hope he doesn't pop you.

    I think with scouts you'll find they just don't do a ton of damage with BS3 sniper rifles. Each shot is good for 0.25 wounds, between the 50% to-hit and the 50% to-wound. The pinning checks are nice, but stuff can often either pass it out-of-hand, or is simply immune. Telion gives you the potential to actually kill the stuff that matters. I mean, in a 10-man squad, the special weapons are the threat and everyone else is a wound marker. Telion flips that concept the bird and proceeds to punk out the important bits.

    Given the reply, though, I think you're on the right track. I think at higher points a Gate of Infinity Librarian combined with a couple drop pods and locator beacons (and Lysdander) lets you move a nasty shooty squad downfield very rapidly, and blow things to shreds in a hurry. Not sure it's a hot idea for 1500, since the Libby and Lysander cost you 300, and a decent Sternguard unit to do that with is another couple hundred...

  4. Aye using a gate librarian is a tactic ive used before, either my one in power armour, or one in TDA with a combi-plasma as i tend to give him Gate and Force Dome so they can gate and still be protected from incoming fire whilst bunched up.

    Ive been thinking of just using the sniper scouts when i use my Iron Father (MotF) so they can sit in Bolstered terrain (usually on an objective, combine tha with camo cloaks or Tellions stealth and they will be very hard to shift by shooting alone.

  5. Yeah, the Master of the Forge w/ Conversion Beamer combines well enough with the scouts/Telion/Cover as well.

    Honestly, I see the MotF working best with a beamer and either a bike (so he can always dictate his range) or the scouts, because his blast template pretty much always wounds infantry on a 2+.

    Camo Cloaks + Bolstered ruins = 2+ cover save stupidity. There's one unit in the game that reliably shifts THAT from cover: Leman Russ Eradicator. Nova Cannon = S6, AP4 Large Blast that ignores cover. Of course, not a lot of folks run those, but if you ever see one...be warned. Then sit the scouts out of LOS 'til you can neutralize the tank.

    I'm not sure if I'm reading it right or wrong in what you're saying ,but Telion's stealth doesn't confer it to the rest of the unit. Telion's Stealth just means HE gets +1 to the cover save. It'd be like joining a single character with Feel No Pain to a unit without them; he doesn't share Feel No Pain nor does he lose it.

    Gate libbies are neat, though I usually have a psychic defense so I haven't seen them do a ton of damage against me. Just fail psychic tests repeatedly, but Gate and Null Zone are by far the most potentially useful support powers, and the psychic hood never hurts.

    I think if you're going to use Gate in a smaller army, then you could probably just settle for a termie-librarian and a unit of regular terminators, since they're not too picky about range, they're fine footslogging it, and moving them close to the enemy threatens to feed the enemy a heap of powerfist attacks as a bonus. Basically, you still have to support them, but not as carefully as you might Sternguard.